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1 TAPE INDEX Anita Staigmiller Rognas 3/20/92 Tape 1 of 2 Intervie~ed by Nanette J. Macy Side;t 1A 0-12 introductions: A.S.R. born 1940~ Great Falls, MT -96 concept & self-definition of "~estern ~oman" based on sterotypes and experiences ~ith female relatives -independence, brave, "not prissy," hard ~orker, "do ~ithout amenities." Importance of having books ~hile gro~ing up. Rural/country and class as part of definition. To~n people as "less ~estern." Zane Grey. -170 Parents as hard ~orkers. Older sister mentally retarded -extra duty for Mom, and later for Anita. Sa~ parents as ~orking and not having any fun, and ~as determined not to live like that. Dad fished, ~omen parepared meals; double standard. Rural men "called the tune" and ~ere "catered to." --Anita rebelled against this to some extent. Both of Anita's "grandmothers ~ere dominant in their marriages." Anita's father "domineering, the dominant one" in family -puzzling to Anita. -260 Neighbors -- dominant male thre~ dinner a~ay. Anita's reaction to event has changed over time. Influences of German heritage and of ("peasant") class status on family dynamics. Mom's family appreciated "cultural things" more, ~ere less prejudiced, dogmatic, and biased than father's family. Anita has been considering "class" as an issue lately. -278 Assertiveness in marriage. Shifting roles of ~omen. Effect of class on assertiveness and ~omen's roles in male/female relationships. Are men less domineering in upper classes? In Anita's upbringing, the men came first. Mom ~orked constantly -- extra duty ~ith regular ~ork and care for Laura. Consideration all for Dad. When Anita married, she foll~ed same pattern -- still does, to some extent. -326 Story of moving from Great Falls to Le~iston. Importance of friends -- book club, etc. -- and feeling settled. Didn't ~ant to move, but put man's desires first. Very difficult transition emotionally -- Dick changed careers, kids (adults by then) didn't move ~ith them, physically moved to ne~ place. Conclusion: "I still react to things like I did ~hen I ~as gro~ing up, and sometimes I get really mad at myself for doing that." When the going gets tough, the tough go shopping -- a ~ay of putting self first. Typical? -- perhaps of area of rural Montana ~here Anita ~as raised. -351 -400 -413 -461 -494 -518 2 Western woman -- seemingly contradictory thoughts of staying put and moving around. Wallace Stegner's Angle cr Repose -- main character became a western woman. Western women -- overcoming difficulties, adapting reatardless. "My mother did a lot of adapting." Raising Laura was Mom's responsibility; Anita can only remember one time when Father stayed home with Laura so that Mother and Anita could go someplace -- occurred after Anita was married. "Raising the children was the woman's job." Laura mischeivous as a child, developed epilepsy when older and subsequently lost control of balance. Mom had to keep Laura tied to a chair to keep her from hurting herself; this was really hard on Mom because she thought children should be free to move around. Laura "like having a baby that never grew up." She died in 1969, at age 30. Only break in constant care for Laura came when Anita and Mom would go to town for groceries and leave Laura with Mom's sister, and then a few times Laura was sent briefly to institution for mentally retarded people in Boulder, CO. Difficult for Mom when Laura died. Mom had electric wringer washer when Anita was a little older. Hung clothes out. Didn't have electricity when Anita was a child; used kerosene latterns until about age 10 -- about 1950. No phone until about 1957. No high school in area; kids often worked for board and room in nearby towns where there were high schools. Anita worked for board and room after sophmore year; remembers feeling sorry for herself because she didn't know anyone else in Great Falls who had to work for B&R. Senior year stayed with Mom's Mother; like other boarding situations, it didn't work out so well. Story of Grandmother and "what matters is whose sin it is." Both sides of family dwelt on sin and "whose sin it was." "Control" as an issue -- father, grandmothers all "controllers." People, including Dad, sometimes mellow with age. Took piano lessons -- mother's influence. Anita was raised "German ... If somebody says you do thus and such, you do it; ... you don't question." Father impatient. Anita "can laugh at it now, but ... it doesn't give you a lot of self-confidence ... No matter what I did it wasn't right." "I don't know why my mother didn't interfere more ... I think she was so preoccupied and so tired all the time .. . she did dig in her heals ... about us going to college .. . but she couldn't about everything." Dad made disparaging remarks about education. Only one paternal cousin went to college. Father finished 8th grade; mother didn't quite finish high school, but should have. -536 3 Mother "had an unhappy marriage" but never told this to Anita's (9 years) younger sister, Judy. Mother isolated, and with Laura, even more so that most ranch women. Didn't have a chance to make friendships with other women where she might've been able to air difficulties; instead mom talked to Anita. Mom would have left dad, had it not been for having to care for Laura. Mom told Anita "several times that she felt it was important for a woman to be able to take care of herself." Choice to stay was economic, although "family" did play a role. Mother "had a very hard life." Anita felt sorry for her and was "so determined not to live that same kind of life." Anita thinks her mom's life was harder, and notes "a similarity of pattern." Got married, husband worked all the time. "mom put up with what she did, so I put up with it. I don't think I would now. I think I'd say 'get another job or I · m leaving· . " ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TAPE INDEX Anita Staigmiller Rognas 3/20/92 Tape 1 of 2 Interviewed by Nanette J. Macy Side lB 0-61 -79 -129 Significance of sense of place in definition of western woman. Anita has lived in town since she was married; contradictions/considerations of rural vs. urban. Image of pioneer vs. "yes a western woman can live in town." Thoughts on eastern women ("and maybe even some southern women") who possess qualities Anita associates with western women. Influence of stereotypes and of women she grew up around and read about. Read Zane Grey in pre-teen years. "The next western woman will be the space woman going off to settle other planets. It's a state of mind more than place, really." "A western woman is the type of woman -- I suppose like my mother --who is capable if it's necessary of putting up with a tremendous amount of hardship, and still being able to laugh about a silly dream she had the night before." Sharing laughter with mom. " ... to be able to go through all those things that life can -- doesn't always, but life can-- deal you, and deal with it; that's a western woman." Space as next "frontier." Ursula Le Guin. Courage necessary to go far away from what is familiar. Anita considers own life in this context. Degrees of courage. "We all have these steps we have to take in our lives, and that always takes courage. And you hope you don't get lost along the way, like in Giants of the Earth." -204 -252 -300 -341 -383 4 "Maybe there'll be more of a spirit of cooperation at the next frontier, more understanding of the other sex, more communication." Anita's parents didn't have good communication. Dick and Anita didn't either, but have improved-- sometimes because Anita has "put foot down." Anita used to think other people were always right when there was a difference of opinion. Dad maybe wouldn't have been so domineering if he had had more self-confidence. Dad had freedom to come and go; mom didn't. Mom developed ability to be silly and laugh ... "Sometimes things just get so bad that you are forced to look at the world differently ... my mother had lots to feel sorry for herself about, but I didn't get that feeling that she did. My dad did (feel sorry for himself." "My mother was a western woman, and one of the best I think." Struggle with coming to terms with relationship with dad. "He was a good man in lots of ways . . . and he did the best he could." Emotionally, life not easier for men, though perhaps they've had more freedom in other ways. Men should learn to do more care-taking. Hard for men to have close friendships. Women have had to build close relationships with other women "in order to survive." Dick has changed since moving to Lewiston -- has developed close friendships. "I wouldn't go back" to Great Falls now. Not working outside the home now. Activities include tennis, church, art show, women's groups, women's book club, volunteer work. "I have a lot of women friends. I really rely on women friends ... my friends are dear to me, and if I don't have any women friends I feel bereft. I really do. I just feel like I'm out there on an island stranded." Surviving -- when depressed, mom said "just keep working ... don't think about it, just keep busy." This isn't really one of Anita's coping methods. "I have never worked as hard as my mom ... I do think that that is a direct result of watching my mother ... I've always taken time to read." Mom would read library books that Anita brought home. Mom artistic, liked plants. "I decided that life was too short to work all the time; I don't think Dick's ever decided that ... I'd look around and I'd see other people having fun. And we never seemed to do anything to have fun." Story of aunt and uncle buying Anita ice cream. Anita recalls first time at a drive-in restaurant -- in high school --didn't know what to do. Anita thinks this was unusal, cites Laura as reason family didn't do *'normal things." lls of grandpa's all-night dances; parents would have thought it was sinful. Social isolation, more than geographical isolation. Anita wonders if maybe rural parents -- because they were so busy-- didn't read about -473 -510 -522 -544 -569 5 child psychology as soon as the city parents did. But then again, there were problems (eg: child abuse) in city families too. Old Jules -- violence. Anita -- people refuse to believe that violence in families occurs, or they only partially acknowledge it. Anita talks about child abuse, kids, fighting back, and the importance of empathy. Story of neighbor girl teaching Anita to "diddle" and the repercussions. Outhouses. Child abuse of same neighbor girl by both of girl's parents; how girl and sister "turned out." People in the community accepted that family. Anita told her dad about it; "I don't think he believed me, but I don't think he wanted to." Aunt gave Anita's mom books to give to Anita about reproduction, sex, etc. "My mother did not have a good attitude about sex ... It embarrassed her to talk about it." Mom wanted Anita to understand that sex "was wrong." Aunt responsible for Anita taking piano lessons too. This aunt's two daughters "both had to get married." One bad habit my mother had was to always compare me with other children, and I always came out on the short end of the stick." Mom and grandmother talked about the fate of Anita's two cousins for years. Anita didn't think it was that big of a deal. Aunt (not clear which one) kept looking at Anita right after Anita got married to see if she was pregnant (and thus had gotten pregnant before the wedding) ... "and that would have been a big deal, and yet this horrible stuff (child abuse) went on, but I think they just refused to acknowledge it." Acting and reacting to stereotype of stoic, upstanding, solid citizen as motivation for part of how Anita has lived her life. Anita chose not to work so hard, talked openly about sex, reproduction with her own daughters. Anita thinks of self as western woman, but eschews some of popular traits such as clothes with western motif, doesn't know much about farming (wheat) and ranching (cattle). Father didn't share his knowledge and his world with Anita; Anita turned to other pursuits. Anita loves nature and has many happy memories of the ranch. . .. a conscious reaction, 1 didn't want to marry and live in the country; my dad would've loved it [if I had]." Father told Anita about herself and her sister "you both have a gift for language" -- not a compliment. He meant "you both chose something that was totally worthless. I think it did bother him that we did go to school and 'knew more· and he never wanted to hear about that." "I think he wanted to be the smart one. He wanted to be the one to make the decisions in his mind a good woman stayed home, took care of the children, sewed -- and I have always -570 6 hated sewing-- cooked ... the only time I can ever remember getting compliment from my father was on my cooking. A good woman did not read books -- unless it was about ranch life or cooking or sewing -- and what did you want to do that for? It wasn't good for you. So I think it was a disappointment to him (that Anita married and moved to town) and I think he held a grudge." Father felt inaqequate in the role of the western man. 7 TAPE INDEX Anita Staigmiller Rognas 3/20/92 Tape 2 of 2 Interviewed by Nanette J. Macy Sjde 2A 0-50 -73 -100 -128 -209 -252 think Anita talks of belief that if her mom had "called" her dad on his temper when they were first married, that their later relationship might have been more equal. Mom insisted on her younger daughters being educated so that they wouldn't have to live her life, also because she'd never finished her education. Main difference between mom and dad -- mom never wanted to have daughters live her life. Mom didn't usually react to stories told at home. Anita wouldn't put up with Dick talking to their daughters as Anita and her sisters were talked to by their father. Disparaging remarks made by father about Anita as she developed into a young woman. Anita intervened when Judy grew up. Mom was exhausted most of the time. Anita identifies more with her mother than her father. Anita critical of mom when growing up, but not of father reason: "When we know somebody loves us, we can afford to criticize them." Children always strive for acceptance and approval. At 40, Anita realized her father would never approve of her. Father didn't like it when Anita taught school in Great Falls -- "women shouldn't work; it takes jobs away from men." "My father was a very honest man; qualities, but there was not that there that I had with my mother." [mom] loved me." Dad's inability unloved? he did have a lot of good emotional attachment "I always knew that to love due to feeling Perspectives on aging. Health is a key. Parents' quality of life decreased with declining health. Dick's desire to go to an elderhostel. Tennis. So many things to do, always something new to learn. Anita confronts dad on topic of "Adult Education" --dad responded "you're not supposed to learn anything new." Learning new things and trying to look at life from a different perspective keep life interesting. If our health fails, we don't want to have to suffer long or be a burden on our children. Learning is the key. One reason when people get older that they get down on the way things are might be that they are approaching death. "You have to be ab to laugh. You have to sit down and say 'maybe it is important to save the spotted owl.· ... about it. Learn what you can about it. Give some creedance to the other side." Wonderful grandfathers. -300 -332 -353 -373 -422 -430 -448 8 Echoes of her mother, when Anita talks of aging. Death doesn't scare Anita though "getting there sometimes scares" her. Being raised on a ranch allows for more pragmatic view of death. On the ranch, "death was the antedote; it was the cure." Mom had polysythemia; mom stopped taking meds. Several years later -- after a series of small strokes -- mom died at age 66, just six years after Laura died. Anita felt cheated -- mom was so young -- and felt that mom deserved more. There was some sort of senility. Anita wishes that mom would have treated her illness, and would have had the chance to do some things she'd never had the chance to do. Father died at age 81 from prostate cancer. "If I had a wish for my parents, I wish they'd have had an easier life." Anita's life easier-- not without problems, but she and Dick worked through a lot. Parents had mentally retarded daughter and "lost a son." Constant battle with feeling "that if something bad's gonna happen, it's gonna happen to me and my family. I get down that way. And I do have to talk myself out of it." Mother's family never had faith in medical doctors. Grandmother had friends from California who were black. As a child, Anita sitting on steps with little black girl talking about sin -- "when you sin, does it leave a white mark on your soul or a black mark on your soul." Significance of conversation didn't occur to Anita until much later. Black family in Great Falls. Anita around black people some, not a lot. No contact with Native Americans until she and Dick moved to Havre. Anita has "more prejudice toward Indians than toward Blacks." Story of putting air in tire -- fear, didn't recognize as Indian at first. "I've never had-- except when I was teaching-- the opportunity to come into contact with Indian people like I did the Black people." Attendance of Indian children sporadic. Indians and welfare system. "As a race, I do not have a very friendly feeling toward the Indians." Choices and chances. Indians not talked about at home. "My grandfather called the Blacks "coons" -- I don't have the feeling that it was a derrogatory name; it was just his term for them." "I don't remember people of other races being talked about in a derrogatory manner." My grandmother had a book about a little black boy, named Tobe. "I know [whites] did not treat the Indians well, but we were the conquerers. Show me a conquerer in history who has been fair to the conquered race ... there are some -466 -485 -500 -532 -540 feelings that that's just the way it is. but it's the way it is. So what you have 'ok, what am I going to do about it now?' there." 9 It's not right, to do is say, and go on from Periods of feeling sorry for herself and finally the question "what are you going to do about it? You can't change the past." "I don't think it's possible to go back and rectify everything we've done in the past. I think to some extent, they have to say 'that's the way it was and it was damned unfair'. But we're here now and we've got to figure out a way to survive now." "There are people who say 'send the black people back to Africa.· We can't do that, we brought them here." "You've got to start where you are now and go forward. And if that means putt~ng away some of those inequities in your past, whether it's a person or a nation or a race ... I don't see that you have any choice. You always have to go forward." Perspectives on Columbus "celebration" -- SOOth anniversary. "From what I've read, I think that the Indians did ok when they murdered Whitman and his wife. These missionaries were arrogant. They were condescending. They didn't treat the Indians like people. And so if a few of them got knocked off, tough." "I don't think there's anything wrong with going back and admitting that this is what happened in history, and it wasn't right ... I think it's good to go back and say 'this isn't right'." Can't change past, but "we can be aware peole have been mistreated, that we haven't respected their rights. So let's go forward from now on and try to do a better job." "I wish we could figure out a way to really help children, because that's where the future is." Dad's perspective --passed down through three generations -- that if you move more than once as an adult, you are considered unstable. Anita and Dick moved several times. "You have ties with the past that you don't even know you have." "Maybe my relationship with my girls was a little easier than my mother's relationship with me; maybe our communication is a little bit better; and maybe that will carry on and carry on and carry on [through subsequent generations]." "We can't change everything overnight, but we can try and change something a little at a time." "One thing I did get from my dad ... he was not a greedy man ... if we can just care a little bit more about each other and less about what we have, and that's hard. My folks spent so many years telling me I didn't need stuff, that when I got away from home I thought I needed everything ... another reaction." -555 10 "If you don't forgive yourself, then you're not going to be able to change. So if you look at the human race and you you chastise them for that, what good is it? ... I think we have to look where we've been ... We have to look back no matter how painful it is and 'this is what I did and I was wrong, this is what ~ did and it was wrong' -- so that we try not to do it again in the future. But we are going to do it again in the future but maybe not so often ... except for the politicians, they'll always be the same." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TAPE INDEX Anita Staigmiller Rognas 3/20/92 Tape 2 of 2 Interviewed by Nanette J. Macy Side 2B 0-50 -71 -128 -190 -220 Listening to "Amos and Andy." Amosansdra doll. "I think all those assumptions were there in society, but I wasn't aware of them until I was older. You know, the idea that the blacks are good athletes." "I remember listening to that on radio 1 but not particularly thinking about black or white. I didn't think much about race when I was growing up ... if you had prejudices, you just assumed you were right. No one was challenging them." Prejudice against Indians, due to living near them. "Are other value systems ok?" If Anita was a person of color, she thinks she would feel the effects of prejudice - - likens this to feeling the effects of being a "country girl." Mixed emotions about sexism. Resents men not listening or respecting women. Doesn't like pressure that says to truly be worthwhile, a woman must be out in the workplace -- this assumes first that raising children is not work or is not important, "and it may be the most important job there is because it's our whole future," and second "that there will be someone of lesser value? lower value? but probably a woman who's going to raise your kids and clean your house. Why can't we come to the conclusion that this work that we do that we don't get directly paid for is also valuable work?" Equal recognition instead of equal pay? More on "Amos & Andy" and representations of black speech. Things taken for granted until civil rights movement of 1960's. Most people didn't really think about race. Anne Moody's Comin~ of Age in Mjssissjppi. Grandmother's story of cross being burnt on a lawn in Great Falls prior to 1940. TV show about how black entertainers were not allowed to stay at plush hotels where they -280 -290 -300 11 performed. Anita's "experiences with race" came when she was older. In Great Falls, general prejudice against "base people" -not race specific in Anita's memory. In Great Falls, "more prejudice about sexual habits than about race." Double standard, based on gender. Similar to double standard regarding personal freedom. "I wish I could help you out more with the 'race thing' ... I'm not real proud of a lot of it, especially my feelings about the Indians. It's really uncomfortable when you have to look at yourself and come face to face with some of the feelings you have." "What I have to do ... and is sometimes hard for me to do, because I was raised to be judgemental. I have to be very careful to consider each person ... I have better luck when I'm on a one-to-one basis. When I meet somebody and talk to somebody, then it's a lot harder for me to see the stereotypes, because that individual is always there."
Object Description
Rating | |
Title | Rognas-Staigmiller, Anita Oral History Interview, 1992 |
Interviewer | Macy, Nanette J. |
Date | 1992-03-20 |
Description | 88 minute oral history with Anita Rognas, conducted for a Women in the West (HST 398) course at Washington State University. She talks about her definition of a 'western woman,' her early family life in Great Falls, and family dynamics. She describes the rural isolation, and her mother's difficulties caring for her older, disabled sister. She and her younger sister were the first college graduates, in spite of her father's objections. Anita was married, had two daughters, and became a teacher in Great Falls, before moving to Idaho. |
Subject | Rural women; Women domestics; Farm life |
Coverage | North and Central America--United States--Montana--Cascade County--Great Falls; North and Central America--United States--Idaho--Nez Perce County--Lewiston |
Type | Sound |
Genre | Interviews |
Publisher | Manuscripts, Archives, and Special Collections, Washington State University Libraries: https://libraries.wsu.edu/masc |
Rights | http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ |
Rights Notes | In copyright. Item is in copyright until 95 years after 2011 publication date. |
Identifier | ua220b09f62 |
Source | Is found in Archives 220, Women in the West Oral Histories https://libraries.wsu.edu/masc/finders/ua220.htm at Washington State University Libraries' Manuscripts, Archives, and Special Collections (MASC) https://libraries.wsu.edu/masc |
Holding Institution | Manuscripts, Archives, and Special Collections, Washington State University Libraries |
Contributors | Digitization and description funded through a National Endowment for the Humanities We the People grant for Washington Womens History to the Washington Womens History Consortium, a part of the Washington State Historical Society. |
Language | English |
Digitization | Original audio cassettes were converted to wav files using Audacity and a USBPre interface. Mp3 files were then created from the wav files for online access. Film clips were created as mpeg-4 files using Adobe Premiere Elements 9 to add selected images to the wav audio files, and then converted to flv files for online display. Print documents were scanned to 300dpi pdf format using a Xerox Workcentre 5030 copier/scanner. |
Description
Title | ua220b09f62_Abstract |
Full Text | 1 TAPE INDEX Anita Staigmiller Rognas 3/20/92 Tape 1 of 2 Intervie~ed by Nanette J. Macy Side;t 1A 0-12 introductions: A.S.R. born 1940~ Great Falls, MT -96 concept & self-definition of "~estern ~oman" based on sterotypes and experiences ~ith female relatives -independence, brave, "not prissy," hard ~orker, "do ~ithout amenities." Importance of having books ~hile gro~ing up. Rural/country and class as part of definition. To~n people as "less ~estern." Zane Grey. -170 Parents as hard ~orkers. Older sister mentally retarded -extra duty for Mom, and later for Anita. Sa~ parents as ~orking and not having any fun, and ~as determined not to live like that. Dad fished, ~omen parepared meals; double standard. Rural men "called the tune" and ~ere "catered to." --Anita rebelled against this to some extent. Both of Anita's "grandmothers ~ere dominant in their marriages." Anita's father "domineering, the dominant one" in family -puzzling to Anita. -260 Neighbors -- dominant male thre~ dinner a~ay. Anita's reaction to event has changed over time. Influences of German heritage and of ("peasant") class status on family dynamics. Mom's family appreciated "cultural things" more, ~ere less prejudiced, dogmatic, and biased than father's family. Anita has been considering "class" as an issue lately. -278 Assertiveness in marriage. Shifting roles of ~omen. Effect of class on assertiveness and ~omen's roles in male/female relationships. Are men less domineering in upper classes? In Anita's upbringing, the men came first. Mom ~orked constantly -- extra duty ~ith regular ~ork and care for Laura. Consideration all for Dad. When Anita married, she foll~ed same pattern -- still does, to some extent. -326 Story of moving from Great Falls to Le~iston. Importance of friends -- book club, etc. -- and feeling settled. Didn't ~ant to move, but put man's desires first. Very difficult transition emotionally -- Dick changed careers, kids (adults by then) didn't move ~ith them, physically moved to ne~ place. Conclusion: "I still react to things like I did ~hen I ~as gro~ing up, and sometimes I get really mad at myself for doing that." When the going gets tough, the tough go shopping -- a ~ay of putting self first. Typical? -- perhaps of area of rural Montana ~here Anita ~as raised. -351 -400 -413 -461 -494 -518 2 Western woman -- seemingly contradictory thoughts of staying put and moving around. Wallace Stegner's Angle cr Repose -- main character became a western woman. Western women -- overcoming difficulties, adapting reatardless. "My mother did a lot of adapting." Raising Laura was Mom's responsibility; Anita can only remember one time when Father stayed home with Laura so that Mother and Anita could go someplace -- occurred after Anita was married. "Raising the children was the woman's job." Laura mischeivous as a child, developed epilepsy when older and subsequently lost control of balance. Mom had to keep Laura tied to a chair to keep her from hurting herself; this was really hard on Mom because she thought children should be free to move around. Laura "like having a baby that never grew up." She died in 1969, at age 30. Only break in constant care for Laura came when Anita and Mom would go to town for groceries and leave Laura with Mom's sister, and then a few times Laura was sent briefly to institution for mentally retarded people in Boulder, CO. Difficult for Mom when Laura died. Mom had electric wringer washer when Anita was a little older. Hung clothes out. Didn't have electricity when Anita was a child; used kerosene latterns until about age 10 -- about 1950. No phone until about 1957. No high school in area; kids often worked for board and room in nearby towns where there were high schools. Anita worked for board and room after sophmore year; remembers feeling sorry for herself because she didn't know anyone else in Great Falls who had to work for B&R. Senior year stayed with Mom's Mother; like other boarding situations, it didn't work out so well. Story of Grandmother and "what matters is whose sin it is." Both sides of family dwelt on sin and "whose sin it was." "Control" as an issue -- father, grandmothers all "controllers." People, including Dad, sometimes mellow with age. Took piano lessons -- mother's influence. Anita was raised "German ... If somebody says you do thus and such, you do it; ... you don't question." Father impatient. Anita "can laugh at it now, but ... it doesn't give you a lot of self-confidence ... No matter what I did it wasn't right." "I don't know why my mother didn't interfere more ... I think she was so preoccupied and so tired all the time .. . she did dig in her heals ... about us going to college .. . but she couldn't about everything." Dad made disparaging remarks about education. Only one paternal cousin went to college. Father finished 8th grade; mother didn't quite finish high school, but should have. -536 3 Mother "had an unhappy marriage" but never told this to Anita's (9 years) younger sister, Judy. Mother isolated, and with Laura, even more so that most ranch women. Didn't have a chance to make friendships with other women where she might've been able to air difficulties; instead mom talked to Anita. Mom would have left dad, had it not been for having to care for Laura. Mom told Anita "several times that she felt it was important for a woman to be able to take care of herself." Choice to stay was economic, although "family" did play a role. Mother "had a very hard life." Anita felt sorry for her and was "so determined not to live that same kind of life." Anita thinks her mom's life was harder, and notes "a similarity of pattern." Got married, husband worked all the time. "mom put up with what she did, so I put up with it. I don't think I would now. I think I'd say 'get another job or I · m leaving· . " ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TAPE INDEX Anita Staigmiller Rognas 3/20/92 Tape 1 of 2 Interviewed by Nanette J. Macy Side lB 0-61 -79 -129 Significance of sense of place in definition of western woman. Anita has lived in town since she was married; contradictions/considerations of rural vs. urban. Image of pioneer vs. "yes a western woman can live in town." Thoughts on eastern women ("and maybe even some southern women") who possess qualities Anita associates with western women. Influence of stereotypes and of women she grew up around and read about. Read Zane Grey in pre-teen years. "The next western woman will be the space woman going off to settle other planets. It's a state of mind more than place, really." "A western woman is the type of woman -- I suppose like my mother --who is capable if it's necessary of putting up with a tremendous amount of hardship, and still being able to laugh about a silly dream she had the night before." Sharing laughter with mom. " ... to be able to go through all those things that life can -- doesn't always, but life can-- deal you, and deal with it; that's a western woman." Space as next "frontier." Ursula Le Guin. Courage necessary to go far away from what is familiar. Anita considers own life in this context. Degrees of courage. "We all have these steps we have to take in our lives, and that always takes courage. And you hope you don't get lost along the way, like in Giants of the Earth." -204 -252 -300 -341 -383 4 "Maybe there'll be more of a spirit of cooperation at the next frontier, more understanding of the other sex, more communication." Anita's parents didn't have good communication. Dick and Anita didn't either, but have improved-- sometimes because Anita has "put foot down." Anita used to think other people were always right when there was a difference of opinion. Dad maybe wouldn't have been so domineering if he had had more self-confidence. Dad had freedom to come and go; mom didn't. Mom developed ability to be silly and laugh ... "Sometimes things just get so bad that you are forced to look at the world differently ... my mother had lots to feel sorry for herself about, but I didn't get that feeling that she did. My dad did (feel sorry for himself." "My mother was a western woman, and one of the best I think." Struggle with coming to terms with relationship with dad. "He was a good man in lots of ways . . . and he did the best he could." Emotionally, life not easier for men, though perhaps they've had more freedom in other ways. Men should learn to do more care-taking. Hard for men to have close friendships. Women have had to build close relationships with other women "in order to survive." Dick has changed since moving to Lewiston -- has developed close friendships. "I wouldn't go back" to Great Falls now. Not working outside the home now. Activities include tennis, church, art show, women's groups, women's book club, volunteer work. "I have a lot of women friends. I really rely on women friends ... my friends are dear to me, and if I don't have any women friends I feel bereft. I really do. I just feel like I'm out there on an island stranded." Surviving -- when depressed, mom said "just keep working ... don't think about it, just keep busy." This isn't really one of Anita's coping methods. "I have never worked as hard as my mom ... I do think that that is a direct result of watching my mother ... I've always taken time to read." Mom would read library books that Anita brought home. Mom artistic, liked plants. "I decided that life was too short to work all the time; I don't think Dick's ever decided that ... I'd look around and I'd see other people having fun. And we never seemed to do anything to have fun." Story of aunt and uncle buying Anita ice cream. Anita recalls first time at a drive-in restaurant -- in high school --didn't know what to do. Anita thinks this was unusal, cites Laura as reason family didn't do *'normal things." lls of grandpa's all-night dances; parents would have thought it was sinful. Social isolation, more than geographical isolation. Anita wonders if maybe rural parents -- because they were so busy-- didn't read about -473 -510 -522 -544 -569 5 child psychology as soon as the city parents did. But then again, there were problems (eg: child abuse) in city families too. Old Jules -- violence. Anita -- people refuse to believe that violence in families occurs, or they only partially acknowledge it. Anita talks about child abuse, kids, fighting back, and the importance of empathy. Story of neighbor girl teaching Anita to "diddle" and the repercussions. Outhouses. Child abuse of same neighbor girl by both of girl's parents; how girl and sister "turned out." People in the community accepted that family. Anita told her dad about it; "I don't think he believed me, but I don't think he wanted to." Aunt gave Anita's mom books to give to Anita about reproduction, sex, etc. "My mother did not have a good attitude about sex ... It embarrassed her to talk about it." Mom wanted Anita to understand that sex "was wrong." Aunt responsible for Anita taking piano lessons too. This aunt's two daughters "both had to get married." One bad habit my mother had was to always compare me with other children, and I always came out on the short end of the stick." Mom and grandmother talked about the fate of Anita's two cousins for years. Anita didn't think it was that big of a deal. Aunt (not clear which one) kept looking at Anita right after Anita got married to see if she was pregnant (and thus had gotten pregnant before the wedding) ... "and that would have been a big deal, and yet this horrible stuff (child abuse) went on, but I think they just refused to acknowledge it." Acting and reacting to stereotype of stoic, upstanding, solid citizen as motivation for part of how Anita has lived her life. Anita chose not to work so hard, talked openly about sex, reproduction with her own daughters. Anita thinks of self as western woman, but eschews some of popular traits such as clothes with western motif, doesn't know much about farming (wheat) and ranching (cattle). Father didn't share his knowledge and his world with Anita; Anita turned to other pursuits. Anita loves nature and has many happy memories of the ranch. . .. a conscious reaction, 1 didn't want to marry and live in the country; my dad would've loved it [if I had]." Father told Anita about herself and her sister "you both have a gift for language" -- not a compliment. He meant "you both chose something that was totally worthless. I think it did bother him that we did go to school and 'knew more· and he never wanted to hear about that." "I think he wanted to be the smart one. He wanted to be the one to make the decisions in his mind a good woman stayed home, took care of the children, sewed -- and I have always -570 6 hated sewing-- cooked ... the only time I can ever remember getting compliment from my father was on my cooking. A good woman did not read books -- unless it was about ranch life or cooking or sewing -- and what did you want to do that for? It wasn't good for you. So I think it was a disappointment to him (that Anita married and moved to town) and I think he held a grudge." Father felt inaqequate in the role of the western man. 7 TAPE INDEX Anita Staigmiller Rognas 3/20/92 Tape 2 of 2 Interviewed by Nanette J. Macy Sjde 2A 0-50 -73 -100 -128 -209 -252 think Anita talks of belief that if her mom had "called" her dad on his temper when they were first married, that their later relationship might have been more equal. Mom insisted on her younger daughters being educated so that they wouldn't have to live her life, also because she'd never finished her education. Main difference between mom and dad -- mom never wanted to have daughters live her life. Mom didn't usually react to stories told at home. Anita wouldn't put up with Dick talking to their daughters as Anita and her sisters were talked to by their father. Disparaging remarks made by father about Anita as she developed into a young woman. Anita intervened when Judy grew up. Mom was exhausted most of the time. Anita identifies more with her mother than her father. Anita critical of mom when growing up, but not of father reason: "When we know somebody loves us, we can afford to criticize them." Children always strive for acceptance and approval. At 40, Anita realized her father would never approve of her. Father didn't like it when Anita taught school in Great Falls -- "women shouldn't work; it takes jobs away from men." "My father was a very honest man; qualities, but there was not that there that I had with my mother." [mom] loved me." Dad's inability unloved? he did have a lot of good emotional attachment "I always knew that to love due to feeling Perspectives on aging. Health is a key. Parents' quality of life decreased with declining health. Dick's desire to go to an elderhostel. Tennis. So many things to do, always something new to learn. Anita confronts dad on topic of "Adult Education" --dad responded "you're not supposed to learn anything new." Learning new things and trying to look at life from a different perspective keep life interesting. If our health fails, we don't want to have to suffer long or be a burden on our children. Learning is the key. One reason when people get older that they get down on the way things are might be that they are approaching death. "You have to be ab to laugh. You have to sit down and say 'maybe it is important to save the spotted owl.· ... about it. Learn what you can about it. Give some creedance to the other side." Wonderful grandfathers. -300 -332 -353 -373 -422 -430 -448 8 Echoes of her mother, when Anita talks of aging. Death doesn't scare Anita though "getting there sometimes scares" her. Being raised on a ranch allows for more pragmatic view of death. On the ranch, "death was the antedote; it was the cure." Mom had polysythemia; mom stopped taking meds. Several years later -- after a series of small strokes -- mom died at age 66, just six years after Laura died. Anita felt cheated -- mom was so young -- and felt that mom deserved more. There was some sort of senility. Anita wishes that mom would have treated her illness, and would have had the chance to do some things she'd never had the chance to do. Father died at age 81 from prostate cancer. "If I had a wish for my parents, I wish they'd have had an easier life." Anita's life easier-- not without problems, but she and Dick worked through a lot. Parents had mentally retarded daughter and "lost a son." Constant battle with feeling "that if something bad's gonna happen, it's gonna happen to me and my family. I get down that way. And I do have to talk myself out of it." Mother's family never had faith in medical doctors. Grandmother had friends from California who were black. As a child, Anita sitting on steps with little black girl talking about sin -- "when you sin, does it leave a white mark on your soul or a black mark on your soul." Significance of conversation didn't occur to Anita until much later. Black family in Great Falls. Anita around black people some, not a lot. No contact with Native Americans until she and Dick moved to Havre. Anita has "more prejudice toward Indians than toward Blacks." Story of putting air in tire -- fear, didn't recognize as Indian at first. "I've never had-- except when I was teaching-- the opportunity to come into contact with Indian people like I did the Black people." Attendance of Indian children sporadic. Indians and welfare system. "As a race, I do not have a very friendly feeling toward the Indians." Choices and chances. Indians not talked about at home. "My grandfather called the Blacks "coons" -- I don't have the feeling that it was a derrogatory name; it was just his term for them." "I don't remember people of other races being talked about in a derrogatory manner." My grandmother had a book about a little black boy, named Tobe. "I know [whites] did not treat the Indians well, but we were the conquerers. Show me a conquerer in history who has been fair to the conquered race ... there are some -466 -485 -500 -532 -540 feelings that that's just the way it is. but it's the way it is. So what you have 'ok, what am I going to do about it now?' there." 9 It's not right, to do is say, and go on from Periods of feeling sorry for herself and finally the question "what are you going to do about it? You can't change the past." "I don't think it's possible to go back and rectify everything we've done in the past. I think to some extent, they have to say 'that's the way it was and it was damned unfair'. But we're here now and we've got to figure out a way to survive now." "There are people who say 'send the black people back to Africa.· We can't do that, we brought them here." "You've got to start where you are now and go forward. And if that means putt~ng away some of those inequities in your past, whether it's a person or a nation or a race ... I don't see that you have any choice. You always have to go forward." Perspectives on Columbus "celebration" -- SOOth anniversary. "From what I've read, I think that the Indians did ok when they murdered Whitman and his wife. These missionaries were arrogant. They were condescending. They didn't treat the Indians like people. And so if a few of them got knocked off, tough." "I don't think there's anything wrong with going back and admitting that this is what happened in history, and it wasn't right ... I think it's good to go back and say 'this isn't right'." Can't change past, but "we can be aware peole have been mistreated, that we haven't respected their rights. So let's go forward from now on and try to do a better job." "I wish we could figure out a way to really help children, because that's where the future is." Dad's perspective --passed down through three generations -- that if you move more than once as an adult, you are considered unstable. Anita and Dick moved several times. "You have ties with the past that you don't even know you have." "Maybe my relationship with my girls was a little easier than my mother's relationship with me; maybe our communication is a little bit better; and maybe that will carry on and carry on and carry on [through subsequent generations]." "We can't change everything overnight, but we can try and change something a little at a time." "One thing I did get from my dad ... he was not a greedy man ... if we can just care a little bit more about each other and less about what we have, and that's hard. My folks spent so many years telling me I didn't need stuff, that when I got away from home I thought I needed everything ... another reaction." -555 10 "If you don't forgive yourself, then you're not going to be able to change. So if you look at the human race and you you chastise them for that, what good is it? ... I think we have to look where we've been ... We have to look back no matter how painful it is and 'this is what I did and I was wrong, this is what ~ did and it was wrong' -- so that we try not to do it again in the future. But we are going to do it again in the future but maybe not so often ... except for the politicians, they'll always be the same." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TAPE INDEX Anita Staigmiller Rognas 3/20/92 Tape 2 of 2 Interviewed by Nanette J. Macy Side 2B 0-50 -71 -128 -190 -220 Listening to "Amos and Andy." Amosansdra doll. "I think all those assumptions were there in society, but I wasn't aware of them until I was older. You know, the idea that the blacks are good athletes." "I remember listening to that on radio 1 but not particularly thinking about black or white. I didn't think much about race when I was growing up ... if you had prejudices, you just assumed you were right. No one was challenging them." Prejudice against Indians, due to living near them. "Are other value systems ok?" If Anita was a person of color, she thinks she would feel the effects of prejudice - - likens this to feeling the effects of being a "country girl." Mixed emotions about sexism. Resents men not listening or respecting women. Doesn't like pressure that says to truly be worthwhile, a woman must be out in the workplace -- this assumes first that raising children is not work or is not important, "and it may be the most important job there is because it's our whole future," and second "that there will be someone of lesser value? lower value? but probably a woman who's going to raise your kids and clean your house. Why can't we come to the conclusion that this work that we do that we don't get directly paid for is also valuable work?" Equal recognition instead of equal pay? More on "Amos & Andy" and representations of black speech. Things taken for granted until civil rights movement of 1960's. Most people didn't really think about race. Anne Moody's Comin~ of Age in Mjssissjppi. Grandmother's story of cross being burnt on a lawn in Great Falls prior to 1940. TV show about how black entertainers were not allowed to stay at plush hotels where they -280 -290 -300 11 performed. Anita's "experiences with race" came when she was older. In Great Falls, general prejudice against "base people" -not race specific in Anita's memory. In Great Falls, "more prejudice about sexual habits than about race." Double standard, based on gender. Similar to double standard regarding personal freedom. "I wish I could help you out more with the 'race thing' ... I'm not real proud of a lot of it, especially my feelings about the Indians. It's really uncomfortable when you have to look at yourself and come face to face with some of the feelings you have." "What I have to do ... and is sometimes hard for me to do, because I was raised to be judgemental. I have to be very careful to consider each person ... I have better luck when I'm on a one-to-one basis. When I meet somebody and talk to somebody, then it's a lot harder for me to see the stereotypes, because that individual is always there." |
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